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2016 Klim Adventure Rally - not waterproof.


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i wanted the AR3 because of the collar too. the collar on the AR4 is a catastrophe. but the last AR3 were all sold out by the time i got round to trying to find one.

and no, it cannot be labelled as an all weather jacket. because even Klim admits that eventually water could and can seep through. although, this shouldn't happen in the conditions i rode in.

had i been riding in a storm for a number of hours, then yes, they could see that happen.

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An interesting ethics dilemma for Klim marketing dept.:
Why market a jacket as the pinnacle of motorcycle allweather garment if it's equipped with YKK Vislon, non waterproofed zippers?
That simply disqualifies the jacket from being marketed as a true RTW/long haul touring jacket. After all, it's among the most expensive on the market, and deserves to deliver true waterproof performance as a standalone product.

Why Klim chose the water resistant Vislon zippers versus the true waterproofed Aquaguard ditto is also a design/marketing mystery.
I'm not impressed by this choice of components. Another factor is the AR4 jacket costs alone the same as my complete 2010 AR1 suit, with pants and all.

In that context a true waterproof jacket is totally expectable and mandatory. This is not OK. In this price segment leaking sleeves is totally unacceptable and should mandate either full refund, repaired/replaced sleeve zippers, or quite simply a new jacket.

In 2012 Klim sent me and several others a new suit as replacement for a flawed batch of the AR1. Back then we reported zip handles breaking, Gore Lockout failures, Gore-Tex fabrics breaking up/"fluffing", and crotch leakage.

The Adventure Rally Suit is a complex design we pay top price for, and deserves fair customer followup and true warranty conditions.

Edited by bimmkatoomer
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the saga continues. but is reaching an end, as far as i am concerned.

as you will read from the last exchanges (see below) with klim, apparently fit might be an issue too, in addition to the zippers only being water-resistant.

i am of average height (5'6") and build, neither fat nor skinny. and my sleeves fit just fine. they cover my wrists well, not my hands.

now, my waterproof jacket that is supposed to be able to take on all that Mother Nature throws at it can't... because of its water-resistant zippers. and a possible ill fit.

so do you have to be extra fat to wear these too? so that the sleeves are tight around your arms and the zippers straight, meaning that water cannot pool in the creases???

they really do no question this design flaw of theirs. at all. ever.

i'll spare you the response i will write back. but i am certainly not sending photos of myself wearing the jacket. and i will not be sending it for testing either. not only do i imagine what the results will be. but even if they were to repair it (unlikely) or change it (extremely unlikely), i would still be stuck with a waterproof jacket that only has water-resistant zippers.

and when the trust is gone, it's gone.

**********************************************

JULY 26, 2017 - email from Klim to myself

Sorry, I didn't specifically state in the previous email that if you felt that you where experiencing leakage other that in the zipper areas that you could send it for testing to the facility. It sounds like you are fairly certain the jacket is leaking through the external zipper sites and we have discussed those areas are water resistant verses waterproof, I don't suppose you would want to send this in for testing.
If you do find that you are experiencing leakage from another area of the jacket that is not coming from the external zippers, you could re-submit a case and if it was to be tested and a manufacturing or material defect was found, then we would repair or replace your jacket.
I hope this helps clear the confusion. Feel free to contact us if you have any other questions.
Thank you!

**********************************************

JULY 27, 2017 - email from myself to Klim

Thank you for your response.

I have to say that I am really disappointed.

The Adventure Rally is marketed as a waterproof jacket, which it cannot possibly be, due to the fact that it has water-resistant only zippers.

Now that being said... My water-resistant zippers on the arms are not water-resistant at all.

On June 20, I took a 1 hour ride to my motorcycle dealership. The weather was humid and I had a little drizzle during maybe 30 minutes of the hour long ride. And yet, water went through right away.

I fail to comprehend why no one at Klim wishes to consider that my zippers may not be performing as they should (being water-resistant, I would expect that some time should go by before water seeps in), or that there may be an issue with the seams and/or stitching around them.

What is now hanging in my home is a $1700 jacket, which I really regret having bought. Just as much as I regret having put my trust in your brand and the performance of it products.

Best regards.

**********************************************

JULY 27, 2017 - email from Klim to myself

My name is (name removed) and I manage our Customer Service Team.

We have escalated your case for review and will be getting back with you soon. The team that I need to have review your case is out until Monday, but I will make it a priority to get back to you on Monday.

I personally think that we should have you send it in for testing. Yes the zippers are water resistant, but with that they should not be letting water in. This isn't a typical characteristic of any of our jackets, but especially the Adventure Rally. I could see if someone was in a complete down poor for a long period of time maybe getting some condensation from humidity between the body and Gore-Tex. Just to rule this out you don't suppose that is what is happening? Is there a particular area that you notice the water coming through on each zipper?

Thank you for your patience with us. I do want to make sure we get you taken care of.

We will be in contact soon,

**********************************************

JULY 27, 2017 - email from myself to Klim

And thank you for your email.

When these leakages happened, the temperatures were never high enough nor the rides long enough to cause any condensation to form, which could explain this. I am also not known to sweat heavily :-)

On June 20, during my 1 hour ride and the 30 minutes light rain, the temperature was 66 degrees F max.

As for what level the water seems to be seeping through, it is a bit difficult to say.

I just put the jacket back on to get a better idea and I would say that this would concern the lower half of the zipper.

The zipper pull tab was all the way up and tucked under the little black piece of cloth - sorry, don't know the name of that part.

I have the Badlands pants which I ride with. And never had any issues with the zippers on them. Same as I never had any issues with any of the other zippers on my jacket.

It's really limited to the ones on the upper air vents of the arms.

It's silly, but this jacket represented so much to me when I bought it. And I'd be sorry not to be able to ride with it on a daily basis. Or take it on my 6 month trip next year.

As said earlier, I am happy to ship it anywhere, even directly to you in the US, if this can be remedied in any way.

I look forward to your next email. And should you have any other questions, please let me know.

Best regards,

**********************************************

JULY 31, 2017 - email from Klim to myself

I spoke with our Warranty Manager and we do think it would be wise for you to send the jacket in for testing. Where you are claiming that you are getting wet through all four zippers is a concern. We would like to have the seams around the zippers tested.

Another point of discussion that I would like to bring up is the fit of the jacket. If you had a picture of you in the jacket that would be awesome. What we are wondering is being that this is a men's jacket the sleeves are going to be longer than a ladies jacket. With that when you are in rider position it could be causing the water to pool up more than normal and therefor not drain properly. I thought this was something good to take into consideration, but we do want to test.

The address you will send it to is:

(address removed)

Please just reference the case number on the outside of the package and make sure to take out all of the D3O armor for shipping.

Let me know if you have further questions!

Edited by beemer bunny
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  • The notion that sleeve fit should affect waterproof functionality on the upper sleeve zippers is downright absurd. This is gettting silly.
  • I would slam the above Gore-Tex warranty on the table - claiming that using water resistant Vislon zippers also nullifies Klim customer promise about waterproofing this garment.
  • As such the marketing is downright false - unless Klim or Gore-Tex make a full refund, repairs the sleeve zippers or replace the jacket.

 

Edited by bimmkatoomer
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just for the heck of it, i did call the company (located in switzerland) Klim suggested i send the jacket to for testing.

interesting conversation. the guy doesn't see much point in taking my jacket in for testing, because they do not test zippers.

testing the immediate surrounding areas would be tricky too, because of the water-resistant zippers, through which water can and will eventually seep through...

their tests usually concern issues with the waterproofness of the gore-tex and/or stitching or seam issues (crotch of pants, etc).

Edited by beemer bunny
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I bought my AR3 suit through a local Norwegian dealership here in Norway. After nearly a year of usage I'm lucky enough to be totally satisfied with this edition.

Back in 2010, I had to buy the original AR1 through www.adventure-spec.com ( who also participated in the initial designs process, and got their logo on the AR1 jacket ).

These top predators in the allweather suit segment also require top followup from Klim warranty dept., and given my dialogue last year about removing the sleeve "monkey paws", I now sense a more stern approach from Klim warranty people. The initial 2010 batch AR1 were flawed, some of us - including me - got new replacement suits on warranty. I was impressed, and still I'm devoted to Klim products, which have served admirably for my Norwegian climate alweather riding.

I now own the AR1, the AR3, Badlands pants, the Overland jacket, Traverse pants, Powerxross jacket, Dakar pants,Revolt pullover, Yokon pullover, Inversion jacket and several of their excellent jerseys and not least the Aggressor 1.0 base layer. Absolutely love'em all. Brilliant garment with genuine functionality.

From my standpoint and position, the top Gore-Tex Adventure Rally jacket deserves premium warranty followup. Simply because it's leveled at hard, longtime usage in all weather conditions and oriented towards long distance riding people doing long travels world wide.

Leaking sleeve zippers is totally unacceptable in this price segment, and Klim warranty followup should not demand lengthy procedures from the byers end towards either a full refund or jacket repair or full replacement. If Beemer_Bunny bought the jacket from a French dealership, her Swiss citizenship should still demand a more appropriate warrant followup than what is disclosed here.

On a worldwide, continental crossing adventure ride, leaking zippers is a dealbreaker, so Klim warranty dept., this goes on your high-end suit reputation directly. 

Beemer_Bunny should not not be on the losing end in such a case. On the contrary.

Edited by bimmkatoomer
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update time.

yesterday, after my IG Klim contact enquired as to where i was standing with this matter, i gave him a detailed feedback.

i hadn't heard back from them since my last message (2 days ago) explaining that the testing company didn't see much point in testing it.

last night, i got an email from Klim saying that they would replace my jacket, as they believed i should stay dry.

and asking me to please nevertheless send the current one to the testing company, so that they could test the areas around the zippers.

i strongly maintain that the issue is the zippers themselves. and not the area surrounding them. they are only water-resistant after all. and i suppose that some may not perform as well as they should.

as for the creases theory, anyone with a motorcycle jacket and in a riding position on the bike, will have creases in the sleeve area - or else the jacket is way too small or too tight. so that remains an unacceptable reason/excuse for me.

as for water pooling, well... maybe if you standing still with your arms folded under the pouring rain for a while. but this is highly unlikely when you riding on the highway at a speed of approx. 120kmh (74 mph), as i was that day. i just don't see pooling happening then.

i guess i'll believe it when i see it, meaning when the replacement jacket reaches switzerland. and i'll be mailing the other one on monday to the testing company. i have removed all the body armor, as Klim requested too. so that's sitting at home and i am not quite sure what to do with it.

while i sure appreciate the gesture, and thank them for it, i cannot quite put aside the fact that i'll be getting a new jacket to go out and confront mother nature... that still only has water-resistant zippers. i do hope that this jacket performs better.

in a sense, i am also at fault here. had a read all the details of the jacket before buying it and noticed this, i probably would not have bought it. i trusted the description i saw on their website, and trusted the person who sold it to me. i should have been more thorough. but then again, it never even crossed my mind that for a jacket of this price, they wouldn't have top notch waterproof zippers on it.

as Klim did specifically write, eventually water could and can get through the zippers.

now i know.

i have had so many people write to me since i posted about my issues with the jacket:

someone getting water into the chest pockets after a storm... (i stopped using the pockets of my jacket to put anything in - my chest pockets also got wet) 

someone having had his jacket changed 3 times in a row...

someone having leaking pants...

a distributor here in europe who stopped distributing the brand because there were too many leakage problems...

someone who rode in rain for 3 hours and ended up being completely drenched...

and the list goes on.

so while this new Adventure Rally is making its way to switzerland, i went back to buying the jacket i was looking at, before i got the Klim.

funny enough, i decided not to buy it because it is only... water-resistant. the irony of it now makes me laugh.

it took some time and a lot of browsing, but i managed to find what is probably the last remaining black/grey Leatt GPX 5.5 Enduro Jacket in an L size around. they are pretty much out of stock everywhere, especially in this size.

i also bought the Leatt 3DF AirFit Body Protector. and am now on the hunt for a waterproof over jacket, that i could also use when off the bike.

dual purpose gear = less gear to take along on my trip.

because of the high temperatures i will get in some US states, i'll probably leave with my Dakar Klim pants, which i really like, for both comfort and airflow. and get some waterproof over trousers for those.

these are now on their way from california. thank you, MS-Zone LLC in Irvine, California (and Amazon)!

598422ea5ae3a_LeattGPX5.5EnduroJacket.thumb.jpg.af7660b720223107f73694836e530cc3.jpg598422e869633_Leatt3DFAirFitBodyProtector.thumb.jpg.7b1f0561cb94e97112159492f790ae2b.jpg

 

 

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I was looking at that jacket to fill a nitch below the badlands pro but more off-road. Let us know what you think of it.

Sorry about problems at Klim, this seems to happen a lot as companies grow and struggle with bigger numbers and mass production. I hope they steer back to their starting point before they lose the name they have built for themselves

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the Klim Adventure Rally v2.0 should be delivered next Tuesday, according to the tracking received on friday.

and i expect the Leatt gear to be delivered before the end of the week. it left NY-JFK yesterday.

i'll make sure to post a review of the Leatt gear after a few rides.

as for the new Klim... they have asked me to test it on the next rainy day and to get back to them to say how the jacket performed.

i said i'd gladly do so. but i'm slightly concerned ^^

just as i am slightly concerned about the testing of the v1.0 jacket. do they test it and place it as it would be in riding conditions (folded arms, and therefore creases, speed of motorcycle, wind, rain, etc.) or not.

because if they test it hanging flat with its sleeves straight down, i doubt they'll get the same results i had when riding with it. but anyway...

i did get some help from someone working for Klim Motorcycle (an IG contact of mine) which probably helped make this exchange possible. and certainly followed my case.

without him, i'm not entirely sure this would have the resolved in the way it was. or as quick.

that being said, the Customer Service at Klim were always very kind and polite. and did respond to my emails. nothing to complain about there.

unlike SENA whom i have not heard from in over 2 weeks after opening a warranty case for my 1 year old 20S. sigh.

what i do have an issue with is a $1700 jacket being marketed and sold as waterproof. when it has zippers that are only water-resistant. this is false advertising, imho.

i'd also love to understand the reasoning behind this choice. and why they did not go with (more) waterproof zippers.

Edited by beemer bunny
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Klim Adventure Rally #2 has arrived. Shipped on Friday from the Netherlands and delivered on Tuesday. Nothing to say there.

The document that came with it reminded me that their European offices (not sure if there are people there or if it is mainly a business address) are here in Switzerland, not too far away from where I live.

I had almost forgotten how these look when they are brand new.

No noticeable differences with #1. Except the chest protections of #2 are red in color - they were more orange on #1.

And this one came with its coat hanger. Which looks as heavy duty as the jacket. Good thing, because #1 killed 3 regular coat hangers over the 1 year period I had it ^^

Can't wait to go out in the rain with it.

It was pouring this morning. But the rain has now stopped. Damn. Going to have to wait for the next rainy day.

There is a photo of one of the labels that comes on the jacket, listing the features and benefits. While there is no mention of the water-resistant zippers, it does clearly state:

"Guaranteed to keep you dry"

On the other side of this same label, it says:

"Lifetime warranty"

Jacket #1 shipped yesterday to the testing company. And Klim confirmed that I could keep the D3O armor that came out of it as spares, which is nice.

image.thumb.jpg.f2b821cf14bcd78318c1ffc1e1472256.jpg

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IMG_4390.thumb.jpg.931701fcc1e85aeca292ca5b88054e55.jpg

IMG_4397.thumb.jpg.153b500451541df4c17241e6c058000e.jpg

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@MtnRider

all good and resolved. just posted the outcome (message just above yours).

i got a new jacket. and am now just hoping that its zippers perform a little better than those of its predecessor ^^

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@MtnRider

it's supposed to rain again in a couple of days. i'll try it then.

some suggested i go inside a car wash with it or stand in my shower. fun, but i'd rather give it a fair trial, being used as it is supposed to :-)

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